Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Administrator]

To Him That Overcometh!

The book of the Revelation begins with what appears to be a quick fulfillment:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." -- Rev 1:1-3 KJV

Professor Bruce Gore made this comment about the imminency of fulfillment:

"The book can be applied at all times in history, but the first task is to ask how was it received -- consumed by its original audience -- what was its meaning to them. Fundamental timing of the book, again and again, you noted it in the last chapter, and it's sprinkled throughout the book. The things described herein are just about to happen."

[Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10FRxJ4_yJo&t=484s]

But there are certain problems with the notion of imminent fulfillment, and to get to the substance of those problems, some background is in order. 


In the letters to the seven churches of Asia, the Lord instructed John to write:

"And he that overcometh [νικῶν], and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." -- Rev 2:26-27 KJV

The underlined pronouns are singular; and the last clause indicates Jesus is speaking of someone besides himself.  In other words, Jesus received power of the nations from the Father, and it appears he is offering that power to any man who overcomes and keeps His works to the end. Then there is this:

"To him that overcometh [νικῶν] will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

Again we are seeing a singular pronoun; but the most striking statement is that Jesus is already sitting in the Father's throne, and He is promising someone else -- "him" that overcometh -- the authority to sit with Jesus in His throne.


We could pretend that is not what Jesus meant -- that the singular pronoun "him" was intended to be "them".  But that is begging the question. And then there is this scene in the chapters immediately following the letters to the churches:

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." -- Rev 5:1-4 KJV

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed [ἐνίκησεν, or, "hath overcome"] to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." -- Rev 5:5-7 KJV

Young's Literal Translation shows "overcome did" in place of "hath prevailed", and the NASB shows "has overcome"; so the lamb standing in the midst of the throne is someone who "overcame":

"and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;" -- Rev 5:5 YLT

"and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."" -- Rev 5:5 NASB

Most every commentator would agree that verses 5-7 are referring to the resurrected Jesus.  For example, Adam Clarke wrote:

"Jesus Christ, who sprang from this tribe, as his genealogy proves; see on Matthew 1:2; (note), Matthew 1:3; (note) and Luke 3:23; (note). There is an allusion here to Genesis 49:9, Judah is a lion's whelp; the lion was the emblem of this tribe, and was supposed to have been embroidered on its ensigns." [Adam Clarke, "Commentary and Critical Notes Vol VI - Romans to Revelation." G. Lane& C. B. Tippett, 1846, Rev 5:5, p.991]

But there is a problem with that interpretation.  First, the timing of the event of the lamb in the midst of the throne was/is future to John receiving the letters to the churches:

"After this [after receiving the letters] I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." -- Rev 4:1 KJV

There was also this dilemma in John's future:

"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." -- Rev 5:3 KJV

Jesus, as aforementioned in Rev 3:21, was already sitting with the Father in his heavenly throne when that occurred. Matthew Henry attempted to explain the dilemma with this statement:

"The apostle beholds this book taken into the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ, in order to its being unsealed and opened by him. Here Christ is described, 1. By his place and station: In the midst of the throne, and of the four beasts, and of the elders. He was on the same throne with the Father; he was nearer to him than either the elders or ministers of the churches. Christ, as man and Mediator, is subordinate to God the Father, but is nearer to him than all the creatures; for in him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. The ministers stand between God and the people. Christ stands as the Mediator between God and both ministers and people." [Matthew Henry, "Henry Commentary Vol VI (Acts to Rev)." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 2000, Rev 5:5, p.1652]

But does it make sense that the one sitting on the throne, Jesus Christ, was also represented as a recently-slain lamb at least 30 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?  Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour, waited over 30 years to present himself as a slain lamb worthy to open a sealed book? 

Or, is the lamb in Rev 5 someone else, perhaps the one who overcame and was to receive the promises Jesus gave in the letters to the churches?  Remember, Jesus said that He, himself, had already overcome, and was looking for (even hoping for) someone else to overcome:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

Dan

[Dallas]

But does it make sense that the one sitting on the throne, Jesus Christ, was also represented as a recently-slain lamb at least 30 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?  Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour, waited over 30 years to present himself as a slain lamb worthy to open a sealed book? 

Or, is the lamb in Rev 5 someone else, perhaps the one who overcame and was to receive the promises Jesus gave in the letters to the churches?  Remember, Jesus said that He, himself, had already overcome, and was looking for (even hoping for) someone else to overcome:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

Wow!  I had to read that several times before it sunk in.  What does all that mean?

Dallas

[Administrator]

What does all that mean?

I was sorta hoping you would tell me.  The timing of the Lamb before the throne is puzzling, for certain. There is also this verse near the end of the book to add to the mystery:

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." -- Rev 21:7 KJV

There is plenty of evidence that John's (the Lord's) use of the pronouns "he", "him", and "his" could be interpreted in the collective sense, such as, "ye", as in "each and every one of you":

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -- Mat 25:34 KJV

But why did John use singular pronouns, rather than plural, such as "all", "those", or even "ye"? Add to that the timing of the Lamb before the throne, and I am led to believe that Jesus delegated the power of the kingdom, either to an individual, or collectively, as indicated here:

"But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." -- Dan 7:18 KJV

If that power was delegated to an individual who was also slain for the testimony of Jesus, such as Peter, Andrew, James or John (Matt 24:9), that would imply there is a "Chief Saint", or sorts (besides Jesus Christ), which could possibly be squeezed out of this verse by the highly imaginative:

"And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." -- Rev 15:3 KJV

However, if someone has evidence that the original Greek of Rev 4:1 was actually written this way:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which have already happened." -- Rev 4:1 KJV

Or, if anyone has evidence the book of the Revelation was written before the resurrection of Christ, then everything would make sense. In any case, I need all the help I can get on this one.

Dan

[Matt712]

But why did John use singular pronouns, rather than plural, such as "all", "those", or even "ye"? Add to that the timing of the Lamb before the throne, and I am led to believe that Jesus delegated the power of the kingdom, either to an individual, or collectively, as indicated here:

"But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." -- Dan 7:18 KJV

If that power was delegated to an individual who was also slain for the testimony of Jesus, such as Peter, Andrew, James or John (Matt 24:9), that would imply there is a "Chief Saint", or sorts (besides Jesus Christ) . . .

I believe that may be the case, at least from a collective perspective.  Daniel also said this:

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom." -- Dan 7:21-22 NASB

That seems to be saying the Lord (the Highest One) gave all judgment to the saints.

Matt

[FaithIsKey]

there is a problem with that interpretation.  First, the timing of the event of the lamb in the midst of the throne was/is future to John receiving the letters to the churches:

"After this [after receiving the letters] I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." -- Rev 4:1 KJV

There was also this dilemma in John's future:

"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." -- Rev 5:3 KJV

Jesus, as aforementioned in Rev 3:21, was already sitting with the Father in his heavenly throne when that occurred.

Somehow I missed this one. This is really freaky.

Faith

[Jackie]

Most every commentator would agree that verses 5-7 are referring to the resurrected Jesus... the timing of the event of the lamb in the midst of the throne was/is future to John receiving the letters to the churches:

Dan, if this is not Jesus who do you think it is?

Jackie

[Administrator]

Dan, if this is not Jesus who do you think it is?

I don't know who it is. God had already given the Revelation to Jesus:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" -- Rev 1:1 KJV

Jesus was already sitting on the throne:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

The "Lamb", in the midst of the throne, takes what appears to be the book of the Revelation, or maybe the New Testament, out of Jesus's right hand:

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals . . . And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof . . . And [the Lamb] came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." -- Rev 5:1,4-5,7 KJV

At one time I believed that John was writing about a past event; but there is nothing in the language that justifies that interpretation:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" -- Rev 1:19 KJV

"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things." -- Rev 1:19 NASB

1) What had John seen? 

He saw the angel of the Lord, which he described.

2) What are "the things which are"? 

The things described in verse 20 -- the seven churches of Asia.

3) What are "the things which shall be hereafter"?

The things which take place after the epistles to the churches, beginning in chapter 4.

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." -- Rev 4:1 KJV

I don't see any wiggle room.


There is one additional thing I have thought of, which may or may not make any sense; but the seven Spirits may be the messages to the seven churches. John had mentioned them early on:

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" -- Rev 1:4 KJV

The importance of hearing the Spirit was repeated seven times in chapters 2 and 3:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"

The seven Spirits before the throne were repeated in the vision of the future:

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." -- Rev 4:5 KJV

The Lamb had the seven Spirits:

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." -- Rev 5:6 KJV

In other words, it appears the Lamb was the only one who heard the Spirit(s), and, therefore, he was the only one who "overcame".

Dan

[FaithIsKey]

In other words, it appears the Lamb was the only one who heard the Spirit(s), and, therefore, he was the only one who "overcame".

I wonder who he is?

Faith

[Administrator]

I just realized something that may change my entire understanding of the Revelation.  Tell me what you think of these passages:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" -- Rev 1:1 KJV

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" -- Rev 1:17-20, 2:1 KJV

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." -- Rev 19:9-10 KJV

"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." -- Rev 22:6-9 KJV

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16 KJV

Dan

[Brenda]

I just realized something that may change my entire understanding of the Revelation.  Tell me what you think of these passages:

I don't understand.
Brenda

[Jackie]

I just realized something that may change my entire understanding of the Revelation.  Tell me what you think of these passages:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" -- Rev 1:1 KJV

Dan, I see that one angel is the angel of the Lord but I do not see your point.

Jackie

[George]

Dan, I see that one angel is the angel of the Lord but I do not see your point.

Same here.
George

[Rev20]

I just realized something that may change my entire understanding of the Revelation.  Tell me what you think of these passages:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" -- Rev 1:1 KJV

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" -- Rev 1:17-20, 2:1 KJV

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." -- Rev 19:9-10 KJV

"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." -- Rev 22:6-9 KJV

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16 KJV

Dan,

Does this have anything to do with the worshipping of angels? 

Rev

[LXXResearcher]

I just realized something that may change my entire understanding of the Revelation.

We are all being held in suspense, Dan.  Help us out.

LXX

[Administrator]

Okay, see if this makes sense:

1.  Jesus sent his angel to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:10, 22:6)

2.  His angel was sent to testify the things in the churches (Rev 22:16).

What else did His angel tell us was to shortly come to pass?

Dan

[FaithIsKey]

1.  Jesus sent his angel to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:10, 22:6)

2.  His angel was sent to testify the things in the churches (Rev 22:16)

What else did His angel tell us was to shortly come to pass?

Nothing.  Wow!

Faith

PS I almost forgot.  This part:

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." -- Rev 1:7 ESV 1970

Faith

[Jackie]

1.  Jesus sent his angel to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:10, 22:6)

2.  His angel was sent to testify the things in the churches (Rev 22:16).

What else did His angel tell us was to shortly come to pass?

I see it now. The prophecies of the other angels and visions may or may not be about to come to pass:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne." -- Rev 4:1-2 NASB

I feel like I have seen a ghost.

Jackie

[LXXResearcher]

PS I almost forgot.  This part:

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." -- Rev 1:7 ESV 1970

Faith, while we all may be able to agree that happened in the first century during the generation of Christ, I don't believe the angel of the Lord said those things. That appears to be a direct prophecy to John from the Lord.  The next verse -- verse 8 -- or even verse 11 seem to be the first words from the angel.

Whatever the case, Revelation 1 is no longer as cut-and-dried as it was yesterday.

LXX

[Administrator]

I don't understand.

Brenda, refer back to my Reply #8.  Notice that the Lord sent his angel (his Spirit in his "glorified body", if you will) to tell John the things that are shortly to come to pass. Jesus clarifies that point in Rev 22:16, that the angel was indeed "His" angel. Another (everyday) angel in Rev 22:6 (not the angel of the Lord) confirmed that the angel of the Lord was sent to show the servants what must shortly be done.

But that was not true of the other (everyday) angels, nor of any of the visions John saw. In other words, the only things that we are guaranteed were to shortly to come to past in the first century were those things mentioned in the epistles to the seven churches.  The other prophecies may or may not have been shortly fulfilled.

How do we tell the angel of the Lord from a run-of-the-mill angel? Maybe this way. First, the angel of the Lord:

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." -- Rev 1:17-18 KJV

A run-of-the-mill angel will tell you not to worship him.  He will say he is a fellowservant, an instrument, or something to let you know he is NOT to be worshiped: 

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." -- Rev 22:8-9 KJV

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." -- Rev 19:10 KJV

Does that make sense?

Dan

[Brenda]

Does that make sense?

Not yet.  I need to study it more.
Brenda

[Rev20]

Okay, see if this makes sense:

1.  Jesus sent his angel to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:10, 22:6)

2.  His angel was sent to testify the things in the churches (Rev 22:16).

What else did His angel tell us was to shortly come to pass?

Incredible!  I had to search back to find out who was talking to John, but this cleared it up for me:

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife . . . And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." -- Rev 21:9, 22:6 KJV

There were many angels and visions, but only one showed the servants the things that must shortly come to pass, and he testified only about the churches, as best as I can determine:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches." -- Rev 22:16 KJV

There is also the possibility this angel was the angel of the Lord:

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:" -- Rev 10:1 KJV

Rev

[Brenda]

There were many angels and visions, but only one showed the servants the things that must shortly come to pass, and he testified only about the churches, as best as I can determine:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches." -- Rev 22:16 KJV

Thanks, Rev.  I think I understand now:

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." -- Rev 3:11 KJV

The angel of the Lord said he was coming quickly but not necessarily the things mentioned by the other angels. I just got around to learning this book and now I have to relearn it.

Brenda

[Administrator]

The angel of the Lord said he was coming quickly but not necessarily the things mentioned by the other angels. I just got around to learning this book and now I have to relearn it.

Brenda,

I now think of the Revelation like the prophecies of Isaiah which jump around from one future event (and time frame) to another: from the assault on Jerusalem by Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah king of the northern tribes of Israel; to the anointing of Cyrus the Persian at the end of the Babylonian captivity; to the arrival of Christ and new Jerusalem; to the destruction of earthly Jerusalem; and to many events in between.  The same for the prophecy of Jeremiah.  The Revelation of Jesus Christ was not much of a revelation if it was merely a rehash of old testament prophecies.

Dan

[Matt712]

In other words, it appears the Lamb was the only one who heard the Spirit(s), and, therefore, he was the only one who "overcame".

Dan, who do you think this is?

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." -- Isa 28:9-13 KJV

Matt

[Administrator]

Dan, who do you think this is?

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." -- Isa 28:11-12 KJV

It doesn't sound like Jesus since he spake with authority (Mat 7:29). Yet, a few verses later is the prophecy of Christ as the chief cornerstone (vs. 16), sandwiched between warnings to the leadership of Jerusalem.  The LXX and ESV refers to "they", rather than "he":

"by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them, This is the rest to him that is hungry, and this is the calamity: but they would not hear." -- Isa 28:11-12 LXX

"For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, to whom he has said, 'This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose'; yet they would not hear." -- Isa 28:11-12 ESV

Therefore, that may be referring to the disciples speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, since vs. 16 refers to the resurrection of Christ a few months earlier:

"Therefore thus saith the Lord, even the Lord, Behold, I lay for the foundations of Sion a costly stone, a choice, a corner-stone, a precious stone, for its foundations; and he that believes on him shall by no means be ashamed." -- Isa 28:16 LXX

But frankly I don't understand it.

Dan

[Ben Rogers]

Jesus was already sitting on the throne:

The "Lamb", in the midst of the throne, takes what appears to be the book of the Revelation, or maybe the New Testament, out of Jesus's right hand:

That is amazing! I have read many books and commentaries on the Revelation, and I cannot recall anyone mentioning this. The lamb was always presented as Jesus.

Thank you so much for this board.  I have learned a great deal

Ben

[Administrator]

That is amazing! I have read many books and commentaries on the Revelation, and I cannot recall anyone mentioning this. The lamb was always presented as Jesus.

Thank you so much for this board.  I have learned a great deal

Welcome to the forum, Ben. We are looking forward to your contribution.

Dan

[LXXResearcher]

Thank you so much for this board.  I have learned a great deal

Welcome to the forum, Ben.

LXX

[Rev20]

Thank you so much for this board.  I have learned a great deal

Welcome, Ben.
Rev

[Administrator]

I found another distinction between Jesus and the "Lamb that overcame". This is the Lamb that overcame:

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." -- Rev 5:5-7 KJV

This is Jesus who was already seated on the throne with the Father when the Lamb showed up (Rev 3:21):

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16 KJV

Do you see the difference?  Judah is the root of David, and Jesus is the root of David, and of Judah; but the Lamb is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. That is, the Lamb is of the tribe of Judah, but he is not the root of David.

Dan

[Jackie]

Do you see the difference?  Judah is the root of David, and Jesus is the root of David, and of Judah; but the Lamb is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. That is, the Lamb is of the tribe of Judah, but he is not the root of David.

I see it.  That is more confirmation that the lamb is not Jesus.

Jackie

[LXXResearcher]

Judah is the root of David, and Jesus is the root of David, and of Judah; but the Lamb is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. That is, the Lamb is of the tribe of Judah, but he is not the root of David.

Good find, Dan.

LXX

[Dallas]

Judah is the root of David, and Jesus is the root of David, and of Judah; but the Lamb is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. That is, the Lamb is of the tribe of Judah, but he is not the root of David.

Wow, again!  Thanks, Dan.

Do you have any idea who he is?

Dallas

[Administrator]

Do you have any idea who he is?

I am still not certain, but James Stuart Russell, undoubtedly one of the most objective biblical commentators ever, presents the case for the disciples, or for those disciples in Jerusalem:

"The real difficulties of apocalyptic exposition now begin. We seem to pass into a different region, where all is visionary and symbolical. The prophet is summoned by the trumpet-voice, which had previously spoken to him, to ascend into heaven, there to be shown 'the things which must take place hereafter' [after these] (chap. iv. 1)." [James Stuart Russell, "The Parousia." Daldy, Isbister & Co., 1st Ed, 1878, Rev 4:1, p.385]

"It is not surprising that this representation of the woman who brings forth a man child destined to rule all the nations, who is caught up to God and to His throne, etc., should at the first view suggest the Virgin Mother and her Son, who was no sooner born than He was persecuted by the murderous jealousy of Herod, 'who sought the young child to destroy him;' and who ascended to the throne of God. Nevertheless, such an interpretation at once breaks down, being wholly incompatible with the subsequent representations in the vision. There is nothing in the history of Mary corresponding to the persecution of the woman by the dragon; to her flight into the wilderness after the ascension of her Son; to the flood of water cast out by the serpent to destroy her; and to the war made upon 'the remnant of her seed.'

There is another objection which is fatal to this interpretation. It is outside the bounds which the Apocalypse itself expressly draws around its scene and time of action. It is not among the things 'which must shortly come to pass.' If we were taken back to look at symbolical representations of the birth of Christ, we should not be upon apocalyptic ground. To leave this ground is to travel out of the record, to forsake the terra firma of historical fact, and to launch out upon a shoreless sea of conjecture, without a compass or a guiding star.

We have no difficulty, therefore, in accepting the common opinion that the woman clothed with the sun is representative of the Christian church. But his alone is too vague a statement. It is the persecuted church, the apostolic church, the church of Judea, that is here symbolised. That is to say, it is the Hebrew-Christian church in the closing days of the Jewish age.

The emblems with which the woman is adorned will not seem incongruous or extravagant when we remember the lofty language in which the prophet Isaiah addresses Israel: 'Arise, shine, for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee,' etc. (Isa. lx.) That the apostolic church should be resplendent as the sun, that the moon should be beneath her feet, is only in keeping with all that is spoken in the New Testament of the dignity and glory of the bride of Christ.

But that which identifies the woman in the vision as the Hebrew-Christian church is the crown of twelve stars upon her head. That this is emblematic of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel seems beyond question; and it therefore fixes the reference of the vision to the church of Judea." [Ibid. Rev 12:5, pp.449-50]

"Alford¹ affirms that 'the man child is the Lord Jesus Christ, and none other.' He further says that 'the exigencies of this passage require that the birth should be understood literally and historically of that birth of which all Christians know.' And yet he holds that the mother is 'the church;' that 'the Blessed Virgin cannot possibly be intended.' These two suppositions are incompatible, and mutually destructive. It seems indeed natural at first sight to assume that Christ must be intended, but further consideration will show that it cannot be so. The church is never said to be the mother of Christ, nor Christ to be the Son of the church. The church is the bride, the wife, the body, the house of Christ, but never the mother. Christ is the King, the Head, the Husband of the church, but never the Son or Child. He is the Son of God, and the Son of man; but never the Son of the church. There would be an incongruity and impropriety in such a figure from which the sense of fitness revolts.

We believe the key to this symbol is to be found in the sixty-sixth chapter of Isaiah, which is the original source from which the figures are derived. Jerusalem is there represented as a woman in travail, who is delivered of a man child [vers. 7, 8]: 'Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.' It is impossible to believe that the resemblance between these passages is merely casual; and we are therefore greatly assisted in the interpretation of the vision by the analogous representations in the prophecy. As the man child, or the children of Zion, in the prophecy, signify the faithful in the land, or in Jerusalem, so the man child born of the persecuted woman in the Apocalypse denotes the faithful disciples of Christ in Judea, or even in Jerusalem itself. This explanation harmonises the seeming incongruities of the passage, and gives an intelligible and reasonable sense to the whole representation. The Hebrew-Christian church is personified as the persecuted parent of a persecuted offspring; she gives birth to a man child, but a man child that is also a nation, according to the words of the prophet. This man child is destined 'to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and is caught up unto God, and to his throne.' These are statements which seem to many only applicable to the Son of God Himself; but they are in truth affirmed in the Apocalypse to be the privilege and reward of every faithful disciple: 'To him that overcometh will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron' (chap. ii. 26, 27); 'To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne' (chap. iii. 21). It is therefore not unwarrantable to apply these expressions, lofty as they are, to the faithful disciples of Christ." [Ibid. pp.451-52]

 

That is a most plausible interpretation; but even that breaks down amidst all the pronouns of the first person. Therefore, I am still looking.

Dan

1 "All Scripture analogy and that of this book itself (cf. ch. xix. 15) requires that these words should be understood of our incarnate Lord, and of no other. Any system seems to me convicted of error, which is compelled to interpret the words otherwise." [Henry Alford, "The Greek Testament Vol IV - Hebrews to Revelation." Longmans, Green and Co, 5th Ed, 1903, p.250]

[Administrator]

J.S. Russell: "It is therefore not unwarrantable to apply these expressions, lofty as they are, to the faithful disciples of Christ."

I would like to add that, in other sections, Russell discusses in some detail the heavenly Jerusalem of Galatians 4 -- the Church -- as being our mother.

Dan

[FaithIsKey]

I am still not certain, but James Stuart Russell, undoubtedly one of the most objective biblical commentators ever, presents the case for the disciples, or for those disciples in Jerusalem

Thanks so much, Dan.  I must have read past that when I initially read the Parousia.  I am reading it again.

Faith

[Brenda]

'To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne' (chap. iii. 21). It is therefore not unwarrantable to apply these expressions, lofty as they are, to the faithful disciples of Christ."

This is the neatest stuff I have ever read.

Brenda

[LXXResearcher]

Thanks, Dan.  Great post!

For those of you who have not downloaded the Research Library from the BRT website, the library lists two free download links to The Parousia:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1878_russell_parousia_1st-ed.pdf
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf%20books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

The first is a non-searchable Google PDF scan of the original book. The second is a searchable, transcribed PDF.

LXX

[LXXResearcher]

Thanks so much, Dan.  I must have read past that when I initially read the Parousia.  I am reading it again.

Same here, Faith.  My next project is to re-read the entire book.

LXX

[Ben Rogers]

For those of you who have not downloaded the Research Library from the BRT website, the library lists two free download links to The Parousia:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1878_russell_parousia_1st-ed.pdf
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf%20books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

The first is a non-searchable Google PDF scan of the original book. The second is a searchable, transcribed PDF.

Thank you very much, LXX

Ben Rogers

[Esther]

For those of you who have not downloaded the Research Library from the BRT website, the library lists two free download links to The Parousia:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1878_russell_parousia_1st-ed.pdf
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf%20books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

The first is a non-searchable Google PDF scan of the original book. The second is a searchable, transcribed PDF.

That is a remarkable book.  Thank you.

Esther

[Daniel]

Jesus, as aforementioned in Rev 3:21, was already sitting with the Father in his heavenly throne when that occurred. Matthew Henry attempted to explain the dilemma with this statement... But does it make sense that the one sitting on the throne, Jesus Christ, was also represented as a recently-slain lamb at least 30 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?  Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour, waited over 30 years to present himself as a slain lamb worthy to open a sealed book? 

I have wondered about that, but dismissed it.  Now it is beginning to make sense.  Thanks, Dan.

Daniel

[Administrator]

This is another prophecy that has been puzzling me for a long time:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." -- Rev 10:5-7 KJV

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever . . . And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." -- Rev 11:15,18 KJV

Is the mystery of God finished?

Dan

[Jackie]

Is the mystery of God finished?

I thought so at one time.  But now I don't think so.

Jackie

[Administrator]

Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour, waited over 30 years to present himself as a slain lamb worthy to open a sealed book? 

Or, is the lamb in Rev 5 someone else, perhaps the one who overcame and was to receive the promises Jesus gave in the letters to the churches?  Remember, Jesus said that He, himself, had already overcome, and was looking for (even hoping for) someone else to overcome:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

There is a new video on this topic at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yC2EoEGl20&list=PLrCQerz2L0If_VT4tw73RjhG5tBjdZfZy&index=3

Check it out.

Dan