Bible Research Tools Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The Bible Research Tools Discussion Forum is now online!

Pages: [1]

Author Topic: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations  (Read 373 times)

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« on: December 23, 2017, 11:44:00 AM »

The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations

Pastor Paul LeBoutillier of Calvary Chapel Ontario, one of the featured pastors on the Bible Research Tools Website, presented a common theme in a sermon on Elijah. Pastor LeBoutillier first quoted Ezekiel 30:3, presenting it as a future, "end times" prophecy, in this segment:


This is the text in question:

"For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations." -- Eze 30:3 ESV

The context of that passage is found in the following verses:

"Cush, and Put, and Lud, and all Arabia, and Libya, and the people of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword. 'Thus says the LORD: Those who support Egypt shall fall, and her proud might shall come down; from Migdol to Syene they shall fall within her by the sword, declares the Lord GOD. And they shall be desolated in the midst of desolated countries, and their cities shall be in the midst of cities that are laid waste . . . Thus says the Lord GOD: I will put an end to the wealth of Egypt, by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of nations, shall be brought in to destroy the land, and they shall draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain." -- Eze 30:5-7, 10-11 ESV

Ezekiel was in Babylonian Exile at the time of that prophecy.  Jeremiah also wrote of a battle between Egypt and Nebuchadnezzar, and a future invasion of Egypt by Nebuchadnezzar:

"About Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco, king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates at Carchemish and which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: . . . The word that the LORD spoke to Jeremiah the prophet about the coming of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to strike the land of Egypt: 'Declare in Egypt, and proclaim in Migdol; proclaim in Memphis and Tahpanhes; say, 'Stand ready and be prepared, for the sword shall devour around you.'" -- Jer 46:2, 13-14 ESV

"Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaoh Necho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.." -- Jer 46:2 ESV

The biblical timeline for the 4th year of Jehoiakim is about 605 BC.  However, Ezekiel's prophecy occurred in the 10th year and 10 month of his captivity, which was about 597 BC:

"In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 'Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him and against all Egypt;" -- Eze 29:1-2 ESV

"In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither." -- Eze 40:1 ESV

Therefore, Ezekiel was foretelling a future invasion of Egypt by the Chaldeans. But so was Jeremiah:

"Thus says the LORD, Behold, I will give Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies and into the hand of those who seek his life, as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, who was his enemy and sought his life.'" -- Jer 44:30 ESV

The text says Pharaoh Hophra would be killed after the days of King Zedekiah. Combine that information with the invasion mentioned in Jeremiah 46:13-14 above reveals the invasion would also occur after the days of Zedekiah. That would place it after the destruction of the temple in 586BC, which was the 19th year of Nebuchadrezzar's reign:

"In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month--that was the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon--Nebuzaradan, the captain of the bodyguard, a servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.  And he burned the house of the LORD and the king's house and all the houses of Jerusalem; every great house he burned down." -- 2Kin 25:8-9 ESV

Josephus said this about the invasion:

"when [Nebuchadnezzar] had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned [329] and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon." [Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Complete Works." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book X.9.7, Eze 30:10, pp.559-60]

"329 Herodotus says, this king of Egypt [Pharaoh Hophra, or Apries] was slain by the Egyptians, as Jeremiah  foretold his slaughter by his enemies, Jeremiah 44:29, 30, and that as a sign of the destruction of Egypt [by Nebuchadnezzar]. Josephus says, this king was slain by Nebuchadnezzar himself. " [Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Complete Works." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book X.9.7, fn329, Eze 30:10, p.560]

Those statements indicate the invasion occurred during the reign of Pharaoh Hophra.


Summary:
  • Nebuchadrezzar fought Egypt in 605BC, in the 4th year of Jehoiakim, king of Judah.
  • Nebuchadrezzar invaded Egypt after the captivity of Zedekiah, king of Judah -- after 586 BC.

The time of that invasion was approximately 564-565 BC, based in part on the following prophecy, and assuming the captivity of the Egyptians ended at or after the end of the captivity of Israel (Nebuchadrezzar died about 561 BC):

"therefore, behold, I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Cush. No foot of man shall pass through it, and no foot of beast shall pass through it; it shall be uninhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated countries, and her cities shall be a desolation forty years among cities that are laid waste. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them through the countries. For thus says the Lord GOD: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered, and I will restore the fortunes of Egypt and bring them back to the land of Pathros, the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom." -- Eze 29:10-14 ESV

This footnote provides other possibilities:

"The desolation that followed the invasion of Egypt was of long duration - a forty-year hiatus in the normal political life of the nation. There was for Egypt as there was for Judah, an exile, which left the land bleak and barren. For Judah the exile ended by degrees with a succession of returns of exiled Jews under Cyrus and his Persian successors. We assume that the Egyptian exile, as understood by Ezekiel, ended with the 525 B.C. arrival in Egypt of Cambyses, son and successor of Cyrus. Working backward from that date, and taking Ezekiel's figure of forty years literally, a tentative date around 565 B.C. is determined for the invasion. Other considerations lead us to reduce that figure by a single year. For the chronological revision that follows, the date 564 B.C. will be adopted as a working hypothesis." [Jim Reilly, "Displaced Dynasties - Nebuchadnezzars Wars." Displaced Dynasties, 2000, Eze 29:10, p.21]


Conclusion:

The prophecy of Ezekiel 30:3 is not a prophecy of our future, but was fulfilled about 565 BC.  Improper exegesis of that and similar passages is typically based on the "desire" that the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" has not been fulfilled.  For example, later in the video, Pastor LeBoutillier said this:

"We don't refer to the first coming as the great and dreadful day of the Lord. That was the fun and exciting day of the Lord because it was the time of good news".


The first-century Christians who were persecuted and killed by the Jews, and the Jews who were slaughtered in Jerusalem, Jotapata, Joppa, and other cities throughout the Roman Empire may beg to differ. Jesus foretold that great slaughter:

"Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,' so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation." -- Luk 11:49-51 ESV

"Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.' O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!''" -- Luk 13:33-35 ESV

"Rejoice over [Babylon the Great], thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her . . . And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:20,24 KJV

The prophet Daniel foretold the Roman Empire to be "great" and "dreadful":

"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns." -- Dan 7:7 ESV

And of course, to the Egyptians, the invasion of Nebuchadnezzar's armies was also the "great and dreadful day of the Lord".


Faith



« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 12:49:20 PM by FaithIsKey »
Logged

Matt712

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Partial Preterist
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2017, 12:53:50 PM »


The prophecy of Ezekiel 30:3 is not a prophecy of our future, but was fulfilled about 565 BC.


Nice post, Faith.  Do you have a link where this book can be obtained?

[Jim Reilly, "Displaced Dynasties - Nebuchadnezzars Wars." Displaced Dynasties, 2000]

Matt

Logged

Administrator

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
    • View Profile
    • Bible Research Tools
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2017, 12:57:05 PM »

Conclusion:

The prophecy of Ezekiel 30:3 is not a prophecy of our future, but was fulfilled about 565 BC.  Improper exegesis of that and similar passages is typically based on the "desire" that the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" has not been fulfilled.


Excellent, Faith!  This would be a good article for the BRT website.

Dan


Logged

Brenda

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2017, 01:35:57 PM »


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQFOrFUCkb8&t=27m52s[/i][/b][/left-indent]


Faith, thank you.  He teaches the same things my pastor teaches, including double fulfillment, which he calls the law of double reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQFOrFUCkb8&t=29m20s

I  don't understand double fulfillment.  It has been explained to me, but I don't understand it.

Brenda



Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2017, 01:41:03 PM »


Do you have a link where this book can be obtained?

Jim Reilly, "Displaced Dynasties - Nebuchadnezzars Wars." Displaced Dynasties, 2000


Matt, check out this web site:


That chapter on Nebuchadnezzar is found in Volume 1, Chapter 1.

Faith



Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2017, 01:58:28 PM »


I  don't understand double fulfillment.  It has been explained to me, but I don't understand it.


Brenda, neither do I.  I attribute that "principle" to the doctrine being more important than the plain words of the text.

Have you read anything by Milton Terry?  He said this about double fulfillment:

"But the moment we admit the principle that portions of Scripture contain an occult or double sense we introduce an element of uncertainty in the sacred volume, and unsettle all scientific interpretation. "If the Scripture has more than one meaning," says Dr. [John] Owen, "it has no meaning at all." "I hold," says [John Charles] Ryle, "that the words of Scripture were intended to have one definite sense, and that our first object should be to discover that sense, and adhere rigidly to it.... To say that words do mean a thing merely because they can be tortured into meaning it is a most dishonourable and dangerous way of handling Scripture." "This scheme of interpretation," says [Moses] Stuart, "forsakes and sets aside the common laws of language." [Milton S Terry, No Double Sense, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Eaton & Mains, New Ed, 1890, Mal 4:5, pp.383-4]

Faith



Logged

Brenda

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2017, 05:14:59 PM »


Brenda, neither do I.  I attribute that "principle" to the doctrine being more important than the plain words of the text.


Faith, why do they do that? It doesn't make any sense.,

PS: I am downloading Milton Terry's books from archive.org.  Thanks.

Brenda
Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2017, 08:46:09 PM »


This would be a good article for the BRT website.


I posted the article on the website at:

http://bibleresearchtools.com/2017/12/24/day-lord-near-time-doom-nations/

Faith



Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2017, 09:44:32 PM »


Faith, why do they do that? It doesn't make any sense.,


It is all they know. Some were brought up on premillennial doctrine, which was then reinforced, even demanded in the seminaries. Pastor LeBoutillier is about as good as they come in the premillennial ranks; but his doctrine is based on a future, earthly, millennial reign, which is untenable.  The reign of Christ began in the first century:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

There is only one throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." -- Rev 22:3-4 KJV

Either Jesus was sitting in his throne when his angel gave John the epistles to the seven churches of Asia (Rev 1ff, 22:16), or the book of the Revelation is a fable.

Jesus also said:
  • he would return during his generation (Matt 24:34)
  • while some in his audience were still alive (Mat 16:27-28), and
  • before his disciples had "gone over" the cities of Israel (Matt 10:23)
The first two are confirmed in the gospels of Mark (8:34-38, 9:1 & 13:30), and Luke (9:26-27 & 21:32).  If he did not return during that time, the gospels are fables.

None of that is a problem for me since I know he returned when he said he would. I now patiently await the destruction of Satan so everyone can live happily every after.

Faith


Logged

LXXResearcher

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Channel
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2017, 08:35:57 AM »


Therefore, Ezekiel was foretelling a future invasion of Egypt by the Chaldeans. But so was Jeremiah:

"Thus says the LORD, Behold, I will give Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies and into the hand of those who seek his life, as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, who was his enemy and sought his life.'" -- Jer 44:30 ESV

The text says there was an invasion during the reign of Pharaoh Hophra, after the days of King Zedekiah. That would place it after the destruction of the temple in 586BC, which was the 19th year of Nebuchadrezzar's reign:


Faith,

Where can I find information about Pharaoh Hophra being the target of Nebuchadrezzar's invasion?

LXX

Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2017, 12:33:31 PM »


Where can I find information about Pharaoh Hophra being the target of Nebuchadrezzar's invasion?


Good question. I sorta left that out. It was an assumption based on a statement by Josephus, combined with a footnote by Whiston:

"when [Nebuchadnezzar] had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned [329] and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon." [Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Complete Works." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book X.9.7, Eze 30:10, pp.559-60]

"329 Herodotus says, this king of Egypt [Pharaoh Hophra, or Apries] was slain by the Egyptians, as Jeremiah  foretold his slaughter by his enemies, Jeremiah 44:29, 30, and that as a sign of the destruction of Egypt [by Nebuchadnezzar]. Josephus says, this king was slain by Nebuchadnezzar himself. " [Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Complete Works." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book X.9.7, fn329, Eze 30:10, p.560]

In any case, I should not have been so dogmatic.

Thanks for catching that, LXX.  I am editing the post to include this information.

Faith


Logged

LXXResearcher

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Channel
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 04:51:22 PM »


Thanks for catching that, LXX.  I am editing the post to include this information.


This is a good topic, Faith.  Are you familiar with the work of archaeologist Flinders Petrie?  He found this during an excavation in Egypt:

"At the same time the actual way into the palace was along a raised causeway which rose at the back of this platform. From the platform a framing of removable wooden steps most probably led up to the causeway, along which the way led to the entrance to the palace at the east end of it, at a height of 6 feet 9 inches above the great pavement. This platform or mastaba is therefore unmistakably the"brickwork, or pavement, which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes." Here the ceremony described by Jeremiah took place before the chiefs of the fugitives assembled on the platform, and here Nebuchadrezzar "spread his royal pavilion." The very nature of the site is precisely applicable to all the events." [W M Flinders Petrie, Tel Defenneh, "Tanis, Pt II." Trubner and Co., 1885, Chap VII, Jer 43:9-10, p.51]

This is the scripture Petrie is referring to:

"Take great stones in thine hand, and hide them in the clay in the brickkiln, which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes, in the sight of the men of Judah; And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them. And when he cometh, he shall smite the land of Egypt, and deliver such as are for death to death; and such as are for captivity to captivity; and such as are for the sword to the sword." -- Jer 43:9-11 KJV

Petrie also mentioned Egyptian artifacts containing an inscription of Nebuchadrezzar:

"Another discovery which is probably connected with this place occurred some years ago; but unhappily it fell into Arab hands, and certainty is not to be looked for. A native sold to the Bulak Museum three cylinders of terra-cotta bearing an inscription of Nebuchadrezzar, an ordinary text referring to his constructions in Babylon, such as would be used for foundation memorials (see Prof. Sayce in Academy, 19th Jan., 1884). These were said to come from the Isthmus of Suez; and they apparently belong to some place where Nebuchadrezzar had "set up his throne," and "spread his royal pavilion." As he only passed by the Syrian road, and Daphnai would be the only stopping-place on that road in the region of the isthmus, all the inferences point to these having come from Defenneh, and being the memorials of his establishment there. That they should be now found after having been buried, is just explained by the denuded state of the great platform." [W M Flinders Petrie, Tel Defenneh, "Tanis, Pt II." Trubner and Co., 1885, Chap VII, Eze 30:10, p.51]

LXX

Logged

Daniel

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 06:37:12 PM »


This is the text in question:

"For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations." -- Eze 30:3 ESV


Faith, what about the second one he quoted, Joel 2:11?

Daniel


Logged

FaithIsKey

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The Day of the LORD is Near; a Time of Doom for the Nations
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 07:43:28 PM »


Faith, what about the second one he quoted, Joel 2:11?


Daniel, that was mentioned on another thread. Read the last half of this post by Rev:

http://forum.bibleresearchtools.com/index.php?topic=2.msg115#msg115

Joel is placing the fulfillment of that prophecy prior to the day of Pentecost:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" -- Joel 2:28 KJV

The only significant invasion of Israel I am aware that fits that part of Joel was by Antiochus IV during the days of the Maccabees about 165 BC. This is part of the prophecy of Joel, followed by the final days of Antiochus which occurred while traveling with his army from Persia back to Jerusalem to take vengeance on the Jews:

"But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." -- Joel 2:20 KJV

"Howbeit he nothing at all ceased from his bragging, but still was filled with pride, breathing out fire in his rage against the Jews, and commanding to haste the journey: but it came to pass that he fell down from his chariot, carried violently; so that having a sore fall, all the members of his body were much pained. And thus he that a little afore thought he might command the waves of the sea, (so proud was he beyond the condition of man) and weigh the high mountains in a balance, was now cast on the ground, and carried in an horselitter, shewing forth unto all the manifest power of God. So that the worms rose up out of the body of this wicked man, and whiles he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell away, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome to all his army. And the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry for his intolerable stink." -- 2Mac 9:7-10 KJV

Faith



Logged
Pages: [1]