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Author Topic: Not Taste of Death  (Read 601 times)

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Not Taste of Death
« on: January 10, 2018, 03:27:49 PM »


Not Taste of Death

Jesus said that some of those in one of his audiences would "not taste of death" until they see him coming in his kingdom with his angels; and then he would judge every man according to his works:

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Fatherwith his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Mat 16:25-28 KJV

He warned the same audience to not be ashamed of him and his words, or he would be ashamed of them when he returned:

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mar 8:38, 9:1 KJV

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luk 9:26-27 KJV

That seems straightforward enough. But many, if not most biblical scholars reject a literal interpretation of "not taste of death". Some explain it away as a reference to the upcoming transfiguration (a week later), even though there is no mention of angels nor of judgment (Matt 16:25) at the transfiguration. To get around that inconsistency, many will claim the two verses are separate prophecies, even though there is nothing grammatical to warrant such a claim.

This article will examine supporting scripture for a literal interpretation.


Judgment According to Works

The necessity of doing good works is mentioned many times. For example, David said the Lord would judge every man according to his works:

"and mercy is thine, O Lord; for thou wilt recompense every one according to his works." -- Ps 62:12 LXX

Jesus confirmed in his Revelation that he would "come quickly" and judge every man according to their works:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works . . . And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." -- Rev 20:12, 22:12 KJV

In the Gospel of John, Jesus rebuked the works of unfaithful Jews in the harshest manner, labeling them as children of the devil:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham . . . Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." -- John 8:39,44 KJV


Perverse Generation

Jesus was not very pleased with his generation of Israelites, calling them a "perverse generation".

"Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me." -- Mat 17:17 KJV

Moses foretold a perverse generation that would arise in the latter days:

""For I know that after my death ye will utterly transgress, and turn aside out of the way which I have commanded you; and evils shall come upon you in the latter days, because ye will do evil before the Lord, to provoke him to anger by the works of your hands . . . They have sinned, not pleasing him; spotted children, a froward and perverse generation." -- Deu 31:29, 32:5 LXX

Until the arrival of Jesus, that term – perverse generation – was used only by Moses.


Blood of Servants

Moses also said that in those "latter days" the Lord would avenge the blood of his sons [MT: blood of servants]:

"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people." -- Deu 32:43 LXX

Jesus said the blood of the prophets (which includes his and his disciples' blood) would be avenged on his own wicked generation.  He also declared that a prophet could not perish out of Jerusalem:

"Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation . . . Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luk 11:48-51, 13:33 KJV

Jesus also said in his Revelation that the blood of prophets, saints, apostles, and servants would be avenged on Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots:

"And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration . . . Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her . . . And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth . . . For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." -- Rev 17:5-6, 18:20,24, 19:2 KJV

The commonality of the blood of prophets, along with the requirement that a prophet cannot perish out of Jerusalem, makes it virtually impossible that Babylon the Great was any city other than first century Jerusalem.


The Olivet Discourse

Jesus told four of his disciples they would be killed, and he told all his disciples that they would not have gone over the cities of Israel before he returned:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled . . . And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." -- Mar 13:3-4,13 KJV

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake . . . And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Mat 24:9, 10:22-23 KJV

He also told the disciples they would be killed before the current generation was finished:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Mat 24:34 KJV


Coming In Clouds

Jesus said he would come in the clouds of heaven, and send his angels to gather his elect, before his generation and the generation of his disciples was fulfilled:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . . . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Mat 24:29-31,34 KJV

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven . . . Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mar 13:24-27,30 KJV

During that same generation, Jesus said Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people . . . And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh . . . So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luk 21:20-23, 27-28, 31-32 KJV

That was fulfilled in A.D. 66 when the Roman armies of Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem, before departing for unknown reasons, giving Christians time to flee Judaea:

"There may another very important, and very providential, reason be here assigned for this strange and foolish retreat of Cestius; which, if Josephus had been now a Christian, he might probably have taken notice of also; and that is, the affording the Jewish Christians in the city an opportunity of calling to mind the prediction and caution given them by Christ about thirty-three years and a half before, that 'when they should see the abomination of desolation' [the idolatrous Roman armies, with the images of their idols in their ensigns, ready to lay Jerusalem desolate] 'stand where it ought not;' or, 'in the holy place;' or, 'when they should see Jerusalem any one instance of a more unpolitic, but more providential, compassed with armies;' they should then 'flee to the mound conduct than this retreat of Cestius visible during this whole rains.' By complying with which those Jewish Christians fled the siege of Jerusalem; which yet was providentially such a 'great to the mountains of Perea, and escaped this destruction. See tribulation, as had not been from the beginning of the world to that time; no, Lit. Accompl. of Proph. p. 69, 70. Nor was there, perhaps, nor ever should be " [Josephus, Flavius, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book II.19.6, fn704, pp.1270-71]

The presence of Roman armies on Judean soil was considered an abomination to the point that at an earlier date a Roman general, Vitellius, redirected his armies around Judaea, rather than through it:

"So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men; he also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those kingdoms which were under the Romans, and made haste for Petra, and came to Ptolemais. But as [Vitellius] was marching very busily, and leading his army through Judea, the principal [Jews] met him, and desired that he would not thus march through their land; for that the laws of their country would not permit them to overlook those images [eagles] which were brought into it, of which there were a great many in their ensigns; so he was persuaded by what they said, and changed that resolution of his which he had before taken in this matter. Whereupon he ordered the army to march along the great plain, while he himself, with Herod the tetrarch and his friends, went up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, an ancient festival of the Jews being then just approaching;" [William Whiston, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Works of Flavius Josephus Vol 3." George Bell& Sons, 1889, Book XVIII.5.3, Mat 24:15, pp.284-85]

Therefore this . . .

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" -- Mat 24:15-16 KJV

Equals this . . .

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains" -- Luk 21:20-21 KJV

Daniel wrote of the abomination of desolation, here:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." -- Dan 12:11 KJV

The daily sacrifice was taken away in 66 AD, a few months prior to the arrival of the armies of Cestius, and approximately 3 1/2 years before Titus arrived with his troops in February 70 AD:

"And at this time it was that some of those that principally excited the people to go to war made an assault upon a certain fortress called Masada. They took it by treachery, and slew the Romans that were there, and put others of their own party to keep it. At the same time Eleazar, the son of Ananias the high priest, a very bold youth, who was at that time governor of the temple, persuaded those that officiated in the Divine service to receive no gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account; and when many of the high priests and principal men besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which it was customary for them to offer for their princes, they would not be prevailed upon." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book II.17.2, p.1257]

The abomination of desolation was also mentioned in this passage (annotated) which points to Christ using the armies of Titus to destroy the city and sanctuary:

"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one [Christ] shall be destroyed [cut-off, crucified], and there is no judgment in him: and he [Christ] shall destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary [Temple] with the prince [Titus] that is coming: they [the city and temple] shall be cut off with a flood [of Roman soldiers], and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he [Christ] shall appoint the city to desolations [even the country side was stripped of its trees]. And he [Christ] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he[Christ] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Christ] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." -- Dan 9:26-27 LXX


What about the so-called Rapture?

For those who believe the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse is separate from the "rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4, please make note that Paul was using personal pronouns:

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1Th 4:15-17 KJV

The grammar indicates Paul was not writing about us, but about himself and the first-century Thessalonians.  Projecting the fulfillment of that prophecy far into the future is exegetically untenable.

Dan

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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 08:39:40 AM »


The grammar indicates Paul was not writing about us, but about himself and the first-century Thessalonians.  Projecting the fulfillment of that prophecy far into the future is exegetically untenable.


Thank you, Dan.
Brenda

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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 08:44:32 AM »


Are you a preterist, Dan?

Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 09:16:21 AM »


Are you a preterist, Dan?


Welcome to the forum, Jackie!

Am I a preterist?  It depends on who you ask. Preterists label me a futurist or partial-futurist, and futurists label me a preterist or partial-preterist.  LOL! 

Frankly, I do not know the best label. I tend to follow the scripture wherever it leads me, and I am not afraid of God's Word, that is, I am not afraid to learn something new. I guess that makes me a Berean.

I am not a full preterist, if that is the intent of your question. I believe Satan and his minions are alive and well, and are currently flooding the world's airways, schools, political arenas, entertainment, and even church buildings and ministries with lies and deceits, either intentionally or out of ignorance.

I tend to believe full-futurists (e.g., premillenialists) and full-preterists (e.g., covenant eschatologists) are two sides of the same coin. Both tend to cause followers to take their eye off the ball. However, I believe the doctrine that most undermines the Word of God is that which teaches this earth will be destroyed, and even more so, the doctrine that teaches, when the going gets tough Christians will be "whisked away" from it all (e.g., "Why worry?  We are going to be Raptured!"). That kind of complacency (or, self-centeredness) plays right into the hands of Satan, and has done perhaps as much or more damage to western civilization than the Satanic teaching of evolution.

Dan

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:09:02 AM by Administrator »
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Rev20

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 09:23:27 AM »


Are you a preterist, Dan?


Am I a preterist?  It depends on who you ask. Preterists label me a futurist or partial-futurist, and futurists label me a preterist or partial-preterist.  LOL! 


Jackie,

I am also a partial-preterist/partial-futurist, like Dan.

Rev

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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 09:29:06 AM »


I am not a full preterist, if that is the intent of your question.


Are there any full preterists on this board?  I am a full preterist. I mostly follow Don Preston and I think he has it right.

Jackie

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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 09:38:52 AM »


  Are there any full preterists on this board?


I don't think so, Jackie.  I am also a partial-preterist.



    I am a full preterist. I mostly follow Don Preston and I think he has it right.


Don is a brilliant bible scholar, Jackie. I have listened to nearly all of his thousand or so videos over the years, and I have posted comments on his videos many times. Our only real disagreement is the disposition of Satan. Don believes Satan was destroyed around 70 A.D., and I believe he is still around creating havoc.

LXX

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FaithIsKey

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 10:04:41 AM »



 Are there any full preterists on this board?


I'm a partial preterist.

Faith


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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 10:16:58 AM »


Don is a brilliant bible scholar, Jackie. I have listened to nearly all of his thousand or so videos over the years, and I have posted comments on his videos many times. Our only real disagreement is the disposition of Satan. Don believes Satan was destroyed around 70 A.D., and I believe he is still around creating havoc.


I don't follow your reasoning, LXX. Paul said,

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Jackie

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Matt712

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 10:21:25 AM »



  I'm a partial preterist.


Me, too.

Matt

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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 11:45:37 AM »


I don't follow your reasoning, LXX. Paul said,

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.


Other translations differ, Jackie:

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." -- Rom 16:20 ASV 1900

"But the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." -- Rom 16:20 DARBY 1890

"And let the God of peace bruise Satan under your feet quickly." -- Rom 16:20 JUB 2013

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." -- Rom 16:20 KJV

"And the God of peace will soon bruise Satan under your feet." -- Rom 16:20 WBT 1833

"and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly;" -- Rom 16:20 YLT 1862

Assuming the correct translation is "crush", there is still a serious exegetical inconsistency that full preterists tend to discount. Jesus said this about Babylon the Great (Jerusalem). I will be using your translation, NASB:

"'Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her." Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. "And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 'And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.'" -- Rev 18:20-24 NASB

I interpret that to meant that all nations (or, at least, the diaspora in all nations) were deceived by the sorceries of the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem. Does that seem reasonable?


Now, what happens after the destruction of Jerusalem? The marriage of the Lamb:

"After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, " Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER. . . . "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, " Write, ' Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, " These are true words of God. . . . Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, " Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great. . . . And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh." -- Rev 19:1-2, 7-9, 17-18, 19-21 NASB

I am unsure exactly what that means, but it certainly appears that the beast and the false prophet, not Satan, were the targets of the latter part of that prophecy. The middle part is understandable, since it was common practice for birds of prey to feast on dead bodies after a battle. The latter part may be referring to the "mopping-up" – the vengeance against the Jewish leadership and their armies. The first part is consistent with this parable:

"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. "Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 'Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.'" -- Mat 22:2-10 NASB


Think about it this way: the leadership of Jerusalem were children of Satan:

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." -- John 8:44 NASB

When that many of Satan's children died – those who were deceiving the nations, what happened to Satan? He lost his power for a very long time: he could no longer deceive the nations:

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time." -- Rev 20:1-3 NASB

During that "thousand years", while Satan was unable to deceive the nations, Christianity had a chance to grow. But now that he has been released upon an unsuspecting world and Church, all sorts of ungodly actions and activities are being pushed onto our unsuspecting societies, churches, and children.

And what is Satan's destiny? The same place as the beast and false prophet:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." -- Rev 20:10 NASB

It all fits, Jackie.

LXX


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Rev20

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM »


Our only real disagreement is the disposition of Satan. Don believes Satan was destroyed around 70 A.D., and I believe he is still around creating havoc.


LXX is in good company.  First, Fairbairn:

"Isaiah, when descanting on the peace and blessedness of Messiah's kingdom, tells us not of the serpent's head being bruised, but of his power to hurt being destroyed; of dust being his meat, and of the child playing upon his hole (chapters xi, 8, 9; lxv, 25). It is the same truth again that appears at the close of the Apocalypse under the still different form of chaining the old serpent, and casting him into the bottomless pit, that he might not deceive the nations any more (Rev. xx, 2, 3); his power to deceive in the one case corresponding to his liberty to bruise the heel in the other, and his being chained and imprisoned in the bottomless pit to the threatened bruising of his head." [Patrick Fairbairn, "Prophecy: Divine Nature, Special Function, and Proper Interpretation." Carlton & Porter, Amer Ed, 1866, Rev 20:7, p.102]

And, now, Russell:

"The mystery and obscurity which hang over a portion of the preceding context become still deeper, if possible, here. There are, however, certain points which seem determinable... It is evident that this passage is direct prophecy, and not a visionary representation taking place before the eyes of the Seer. It is not introduced by the usual formula in such cases, 'And I saw,' but in the style of prophetic prediction... It is evident that the prediction of what is to take place at the close of a thousand years does not come within what we have ventured to call 'apocalyptic limits.' These limits, as we are again and again warned in the book itself, are rigidly confined within a very narrow compass; the things shown are 'shortly to come to pass.' It would have been an abuse of language to say that the events at the distance of a thousand years were to come to pass shortly; we are therefore compelled to regard this prediction as lying outside the apocalyptic limits altogether... We must consequently regard this prediction of the loosing of Satan, and the events that follow, as still future, and therefore unfulfilled. We know of nothing recorded in history which can be adduced as in any way a probably fulfillment of this prophecy." [James Stuart Russell, "The Parousia." Daldy, Isbister & Co., 1st Ed, 1878, Chap. xx. 7-10, p.522]

The result of the whole is, that we must consider the passage which treats of the thousand years, from ver. 5 to ver. 10, as an intercalation or parenthesis. The Seer, having begun to relate the judgment of the dragon, passes in ver. 7 out of the apocalyptic limits to conclude what he had to say respecting the final punishment of 'the old serpent,' and the fate that awaited him at the close of a lengthened period called 'a thousand years.' This we believe to be the sole instance in the whole book of an excursion into distant futurity; and we are disposed to regard the whole parenthesis as relating to matters still future and unfulfilled. The broken continuity of the narration is joined again at ver. 11, where the Seer resumes the account of what he beheld in vision, introducing it by the familiar formula 'And I saw.'" [James Stuart Russell, "The Parousia." Daldy, Isbister & Co., 1st Ed, 1878, Rev.20:7-10, p.523]

"But should it be needful for the welfare and guidance of mankind that God should again manifest Himself, there is no presumption against further revelations. Why should it be thought that God has spoken His last word to men? But it is for Him to choose, and not for us to dictate. It may well be that even now, in ways unsuspected by us, He is speaking to man. 'God fulfils himself in many ways, and human history is as full of God today as in the ages of miracle and prophecy. Far from us be that incredulity which despairs of Christianity and of man. Surely, it was not in vain that Jesus said, 'I am the Light of the World.' 'God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved.' 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'" [James Stuart Russell, "The Parousia." Daldy, Isbister & Co., 1st Ed, 1878, Rev 20:7, pp.552-53]

Rev

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Dallas

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 01:10:21 PM »


Jesus said that some of those in one of his audiences would "not taste of death" until they see him coming in his kingdom with his angels;


Nice post, Dan.  I am also a partial preterist.

Dallas


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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 04:08:44 PM »


And what is Satan's destiny? The same place as the beast and false prophet:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." -- Rev 20:10 NASB


You gave me a lot to think about, LXX.
Jackie


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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2018, 12:22:16 AM »


LXX is in good company.  First, Fairbairn:

And, now, Russell:


And now Terry.

"The thousand years is to be understood as a symbolical number, denoting a long period. It is a round number, but stands for an indefinite period, an aeon whose duration it would be a folly to attempt to compute. Its beginning dates from the great catastrophe of this book, the fall of the mystic Babylon. It is the aeon which opens with the going forth of the great Conqueror of xix, 11-16, and continues until he shall have put all his enemies under his feet (1 Cor. xv, 25). It is the same period as that required for the stone of Daniel's prophecy (Dan. ii, 35) to fill the earth, and the mustard seed of Jesus's parable to consummate its world-wide growth (Matt, xiii, 31, 32). How long the King of kings will continue his battle against evil and defer the last decisive blow, when Satan shall be"loosed for a little time," no man can even approximately judge." [Milton S Terry, "Biblical Apocalyptics." Eaton & Mains, 1898, Rev 20:4, p.451]

"With that shutting up of Satan the millennium begins, a long indefinite period, as the symbolical number most naturally suggests, but a period of ample fulness for the universal diffusion and triumph of the Gospel (verses 4-6)."The first resurrection" takes place at the beginning of this period, and is chiefly conspicuous as a resurrection of martyrs; a bliss of which not all the dead appear to have been "accounted worthy" (καταξιωθέντες, Luke xx, 35), but which Paul was anxious to attain (Phil, iii, 11)." [Milton S Terry, Fall of Babylon, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Eaton & Mains, New Ed, 1890, Rev 20:4, p.374]

I found the books here.

https://archive.org/details/biblicalhermeneu00terruoft
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008414179

These are my first footnotes so bear with me.  It took a while to get things lined up.

Brenda


« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:46:33 AM by Brenda »
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FaithIsKey

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2018, 09:29:45 AM »


These are my first footnotes so bear with me.  It took a while to get things lined up.


Thanks, Brenda.  Nice footnotes.

Faith

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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2018, 09:35:46 AM »


These are my first footnotes so bear with me.  It took a while to get things lined up.


Thanks for the footnotes, Brenda

LXX

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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2018, 09:38:57 AM »


I found the books here.

https://archive.org/details/biblicalhermeneu00terruoft
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008414179


I forgot to mention that those links to Milton Terry's books are included in the Research Library Publications.

Brenda



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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 09:46:10 AM »


"With that shutting up of Satan the millennium begins, a long indefinite period, as the symbolical number most naturally suggests, but a period of ample fulness for the universal diffusion and triumph of the Gospel (verses 4-6)."The first resurrection" takes place at the beginning of this period, and is chiefly conspicuous as a resurrection of martyrs; a bliss of which not all the dead appear to have been "accounted worthy" (καταξιωθέντες, Luke xx, 35), but which Paul was anxious to attain (Phil, iii, 11)." [Milton S Terry, Fall of Babylon, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Eaton & Mains, New Ed, 1890, Rev 20:4, p.]


I knew I would forget something. The page number is 374.  I'm fixing it on my first post.
Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 09:51:24 AM »


I knew I would forget something. The page number is 374.  I'm fixing it on my first post.


I omitted an entire generation in the timeline I posted, Brenda (I fixed it).

Thanks for the footnotes. They are good ones.

Dan
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Rev20

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 08:18:47 PM »


And now [Milton] Terry.


Brenda, Milton Terry was an unapologetic partial preterist who believed the 2nd coming was fulfilled in the first century.  This is Terry on the theme of this topic, "not taste of death":

"The next passage to note is Matt, xvi, 27, 28, which must be compared with Mark viii, 38; ix, 1, and Luke ix, 26, 27. Here we observe some slight differences of phraseology, and Mark and Luke introduce before the passage the statement that when the Son of man shall come in his glory he will be ashamed of them that are now ashamed of him and his words. But it is to be observed that Matt, x, 32, 33, and Luke xii, 8, 9, report words of Jesus strikingly parallel with these. But all three synoptists agree in placing the main statement of this passage in the same connection, and immediately before their accounts of the transfiguration… All sorts of efforts have been made to evade the simple meaning of these words, but they all spring from the dogmatic prepossession that the coming of the Son of man in his glory must needs be an event far future from the time when the words were spoken… The plain teaching of the passage is that before some of those who heard him speak should die the Son of man would come in glory, and his kingdom would be established in power. And this teaching is in strict accord with what is taught in Matt, xxiv and its parallels in Mark and Luke." [Milton S Terry, Gospel Apocalypse, "Biblical Apocalyptics." Eaton & Mains, 1898, Mat 16:-27-28, pp.219-220]

Many who claim to be partial preterists deny a first-century 2nd coming due to creedal constraints, or, for the same reason, admit he came but deny it was the "real" second coming.

This page contains a good mix of Terry's works:


Rev


 
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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 12:37:13 AM »


Thanks for the footnotes, Brenda


LXX, William Bell said there was a problem with Milton Terry's hermeneutics. See what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dMNjPDGJU&t=39m49s

Jackie
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 01:59:40 AM »


LXX, William Bell said there was a problem with Milton Terry's hermeneutics. See what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dMNjPDGJU&t=39m49s


Jackie, these are the two passages from Terry that William Bell is quoting:

"The thousand years is to be understood as a symbolical number, denoting a long period. It is a round number, but stands for an indefinite period, an aeon whose duration it would be a folly to attempt to compute. Its beginning dates from the great catastrophe of this book, the fall of the mystic Babylon. It is the aeon which opens with the going forth of the great Conqueror of (Rev.) xix, 11-16, and continues until he shall have put all his enemies under his feet (1 Cor. xv, 25). It is the same period as that required for the stone of Daniel's prophecy (Dan. ii, 35) to fill the earth, and the mustard seed of Jesus's parable to consummate its world-wide growth (Matt, xiii, 31, 32). How long the King of kings will continue his battle against evil and defer the last decisive blow, when Satan shall be"loosed for a little time," no man can even approximately judge. It may require a million years. But during all this time the enthroned martyrs, whose blood and ashes were the seed of the Church, live and reign with their glorified Lord. They are conceived as risen with Christ (comp. Rom. vi, 5 ; Eph. ii, 6 ; Col. ii, 12; iii, 1), seated with him in glory, sharing his triumphs, and exercising judgment with him as associate kings." [Milton S Terry, Apocalypse of John, "Biblical Apocalyptics." Eaton & Mains, 1898, Rev 20:4, p.451]

"The main question, which logically controls all others in the case, is whether the words,"we, the living, who remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. IV, 15, comp. ver. 17 and main 1 Cor. XV, 51, 52) imply an expectation that Paul and his contemporaries might live to witness the parousia. That they do imply such an expectation is the judgment of many of the best interpreters, and, perhaps, it may be said that, were it not for certain dogmatic prepossessions, no one would ever have formed a contrary opinion." [Milton S Terry, The Pauline Eschatology, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Phillips & Hunt, 1885, 1Cor 15:52, p.455]

At 43:21, William said,

"When he commented on first Corinthians 15, 51 and 52, which would be when the last enemy is destroyed…"

Read that carefully. William is assuming that the resurrection is also the time the last enemy is destroyed, but there is no proof of that. These are the passages involved:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -- 1Cor 15:51-52 KJV

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1Th 4:15-17 KJV

Those passages say nothing about the "last enemy" being destroyed.  That is found here:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." -- 1Cor 15:23-25 KJV

All three passages say or imply the the resurrection occurs at His coming. But those passages must also be reconciled with this passage:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever . . . And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." -- Rev 11:15, 18 KJV

So, when does his reign begin?  Many think it began at his resurrection, and that is difficult to dispute. But Jesus had another throne in mind – the throne of his glory:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" -- Mat 25:31 KJV

So, when does Christ sit on the throne of his glory? At the first resurrection when he sends his holy angels to gather his elect:

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- Mat 24:31 KJV

That is the same trumpet found in 1Cor 15:51-52, 1Thes 4:16, and Rev 11:15. So what happens next?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:4-6 KJV

Who sat on those thrones of judgment?  We know the disciples were promised thrones at the time Jesus sat on the throne of his glory:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory (comp. Mat 25:31), ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." -- Mat 19:28 KJV

What happens next?  Let's go back to 1 Cor 15:24,

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." -- 1Cor 15:24-25 KJV

And when does that happen?  After the "thousand year" reign:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:7-9 KJV

That last verse is not referring to earthly Jerusalem, because that was destroyed and is to be found no more:

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." -- Rev 18:20-21 KJV

This is Revelation 20:9, annotated:

"And [Satan and his armies] went up on the breadth of the earth [the entire earth], and compassed the camp of the saints about [the holy temple on heavenly mount Sion -- Eph 2:11 - 21], and the beloved city [new Jerusalem on heavenly mount Sion -- Heb 12:19, 22 - 24] and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:9 KJV

The devil was released upon an unsuspecting Church; and Milton Terry has it right.

One hermeneutical inconsistency many full preterists are plagued with is their interpretation of Gog and Magog. They believe Ezekiel 38-39 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and Revelation 20:7-9 is simply a rehash of that prophecy. If they understood that neither is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, they may be more inclined to become partial preterists.

BTW, I posted comments on that video about 6 months ago, shortly after William released it.

LXX

« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 10:08:03 AM by LXXResearcher »
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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 08:58:13 AM »


"The main question, which logically controls all others in the case, is whether the words,"we, the living, who remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. IV, 15, comp. ver. 17 and main 1 Cor. XV, 51, 52) imply an expectation that Paul and his contemporaries might live to witness the parousia. That they do imply such an expectation is the judgment of many of the best interpreters, and, perhaps, it may be said that, were it not for certain dogmatic prepossessions, no one would ever have formed a contrary opinion." [Milton S Terry, The Pauline Eschatology, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Phillips & Hunt, 1885, 1Cor 15:52, p.455]


I can't find that in my book.
Brenda



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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 09:49:45 AM »


I can't find that [second quote] in my book.


Brenda, I quoted from the First Edition. The "New Edition" you quoted was "thoroughly revised". This is from the Preface of the New:

"Specialists and experts in exegetical learning will push their way through all difficulties [of the First Ed.], and find delight in testing principles; but the ordinary student, if led at all into continued and successful searching of the Scriptures, must become interested in the practical work of exposition. The bare enunciation of principles, with brief references to texts in which they are exemplified, is too dry and taxing to the mind to develop a taste for exegetical study; it has a tendency rather to repel. Our plan [in the New Edition] is rather to familiarize the student with correct methods by means of continuous exercise in the actual work of exegesis."

This is the link to the 1st Edition:


LXX

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Brenda

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 09:55:26 AM »


Many who claim to be partial preterists deny a first-century 2nd coming due to creedal constraints, or, for the same reason, admit he came but deny it was the "real" second coming.

This page contains a good mix of Terry's works:



This is a whole new world. Thanks Rev.
Brenda
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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 09:56:24 AM »

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2018, 10:14:55 AM »

This is Revelation 20:9, annotated:

"And [Satan and his armies] went up on the breadth of the earth [the entire earth], and compassed the camp of the saints about [the holy temple on heavenly mount Sion -- Eph 2:11 - 21], and the beloved city [new Jerusalem on heavenly mount Sion -- Heb 12:19, 22 - 24] and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:9 KJV

LXX, how do you know the holy temple is on "heavenly mount Sion"?
Perry

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Ron Black

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2018, 10:27:36 AM »


Thanks to everyone for this.
Ron
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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »


At 43:21, William said,

"When he commented on first Corinthians 15, 51 and 52, which would be when the last enemy is destroyed…"

Read that carefully. William is assuming that the resurrection is also the time the last enemy is destroyed, but there is no proof of that.


You make some good arguments but William explains how Terry contradicted himself at 48:28.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dMNjPDGJU&t=48m28s

Jackie
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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2018, 11:48:26 AM »



LXX, how do you know the holy temple is on "heavenly mount Sion"?


Perry, this is the passage on the holy temple:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" -- Eph 2:19-21 KJV

The chief cornerstone was laid in Sion:

"Therefore thus saith the Lord, even the Lord, Behold, I lay for the foundations of Sion a costly stone, a choice, a corner-stone, a precious stone, for its foundations; and he that believes on him shall by no means be ashamed." -- Isa 28:16 LXX

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." -- 1Pet 2:5-6 KJV

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest . . . But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:18, 22-24 KJV

LXX
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2018, 12:51:29 PM »


You make some good arguments but William explains how Terry contradicted himself at 48:28.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dMNjPDGJU&t=48m28s


William relies on a dogmatic presupposition to arrive at his conclusion, that being,

"Now what does that mean for his view on the Millennium? If this is the time the death is being destroyed, and it ends in the lifetime of those disciples based on his statement, the Millennium has to end at that point. He's already given us that from Biblical Apocalyptic."

I believe he meant "He's already given us that from Biblical Hermeneutics", because earlier at 41:24 he said:

"So now let me show you what he's done in his writings in Biblical Hermeneutics which is his book on interpreting the bible . . . Let me show you what he did and you evaluate. So when he commented on first Corinthians 15:51 and 52 which would be when the last enemy is destroyed; and also 1st [Thessalonians] 4:15 . . . and verse 17, he stated very strongly . . . that both of those texts were fulfilled. . . . that the coming of the Lord under discussion according to first Corinthians 15 verses 51 and 52 . . . and 1st Thessalonians 4:15 and verse 17 . . . he says those statements mean the event would happen in the lifetime of first century Saints."


But, either way, William assumes Terry meant that death was to be destroyed during the lifetime of the disciples, when, in fact, Terry said no such thing. Read it again:

"The main question, which logically controls all others in the case, is whether the words,"we, the living, who remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. IV, 15, comp. ver. 17 and main 1 Cor. XV, 51, 52) imply an expectation that Paul and his contemporaries might live to witness the parousia. That they do imply such an expectation is the judgment of many of the best interpreters, and, perhaps, it may be said that, were it not for certain dogmatic prepossessions, no one would ever have formed a contrary opinion." [Milton S Terry, The Pauline Eschatology, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Phillips & Hunt, 1885, 1Cor 15:52, p.455]

Terry is talking only about the timing of the first resurrection, and not the destruction of the "last enemy". If William had carefully read the following pages, he would have seen this:

"The language of the apostle in Phil, iii, 10, 11 implies the doctrine of a partial and special resurrection. He speaks of his ambition and longing to know Christ,"and the power of his resurrection, and fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death, if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead" (εἰς τὴν ἐξανάστασιν τὴν ἐκ νεκρῶν). Why should Paul express such an anxiety to attain what was inevitable? If all must needs rise at some far future period, at the same moment of time, this language is manifestly inappropriate; but if a resurrection of martyrs and distinguished confessors of Christ was to take place at the parousia, within that generation, the words have a pertinency and force which all must feel." [Milton S Terry, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Phillips & Hunt, 1885, Phi 3:10, p.464]

Paul said as much to Timothy:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." -- 2Tim 4:18 KJV

Shouldn't Paul have said, "the Lord shall deliver US", and not, "ME", if a general resurrection was anticipated? He was clearly excluding Timothy, the Gentile, from the First Resurrection.


If William had read a little further, he would have found a passage that clearly contradicted his presupposition:

"After the fall of the great Babylon there follows a sevenfold vision of the coming and kingdom of the Christ (chap. xix, 11-xxi, 8 ). As, in Matt, xxiv, 29,"immediately after the tribulation of those days" the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, so, immediately after the horrors of the woe-smitten city, the seer of Patmos beholds the heaven opened, and the glorious King of kings and Lord of lords comes forth to judge the nations and avenge his own elect. This great apocalyptic picture contains: (1) The parousia of the Son of man in his glory (xix, 11-16). (2) The destruction of the beast and the false prophet with all their impious forces (verses 17-21). This overthrow is portrayed in noticeable harmony with that of the lawless one in 2 Thess. ii, 8, "whom the Lord Jesus shall take off with the breath of his mouth, and bring to naught with the manifestation of his coming;" and the beastly agents of Satan, like those of Daniel's visions (Dan. vii, 11), are given to the burning flame. (3) The destruction of these beasts, to whom the dragon gave his power and authority(chap, xiii, 2, 11, 12), is appropriately followed by the binding and imprisonment of the old dragon himself (chap, xx, 1-3)." [Milton S Terry, "Biblical Hermeneutics." Phillips & Hunt, 1885, Rev 19:11, pp.483-84]

As you can see, Terry plainly stated that Satan was bound, not destroyed, immediately after the destruction of the beasts, which occurred after the parousia and marriage.


William saw what he wanted to see. Perhaps he should take his own advice:

"That's why I'm saying you just can't pick up a man's book and half read it and then run off with a doctrine, and claim Milton Terry said it's a long time."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dMNjPDGJU&t=48m45s

LXX






« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 01:36:12 PM by LXXResearcher »
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Perry

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2018, 03:36:55 PM »


The chief cornerstone was laid in Sion:


I see what you mean.  Thank you.
Perry
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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2018, 03:55:41 PM »


William assumes Terry meant that death was to be destroyed during the lifetime of the disciples, when, in fact, Terry said no such thing.


I see it now.

Jackie

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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2018, 08:50:14 PM »


As you can see, Terry plainly stated that Satan was bound, not destroyed, immediately after the destruction of the beasts, which occurred after the parousia and marriage.


LXX, I have been reading your comments on William's video and one statement you made is puzzling. This is the sequence:

"Recall that Satan was bound so that he could not deceive the nations again for a thousand years (Rev 20:3).

"It just so happened that Jerusalem was also deceiving the nations (like Satan) before its destruction (Rev 18:23-24).

"A chronological interpretation implies Satan's binding did not occur until after Jerusalem was destroyed; and that Satan's binding coincided with the beginning of the millennial reign; both of which are consistent with Daniel 7.

"I concur somewhat with Milton Terry, that the millennium is/was a long time; but not a million years as he speculated here: ([Milton S Terry, "Biblical Apocalyptics." Eaton & Mains, 1898, Rev 20:4, p.451])

"Rather I interpret it to mean that Satan was bound upon the destruction of Jerusalem (which included the destruction of most of his children: John 8:44), and (get this!) he was not released again to deceive the nations (to go after the saints and the Church) until 1948, when his children were able to regain a foothold."

How did you come up with your last statement? Weren't they all killed by the Romans?

Jackie
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2018, 09:35:04 PM »


LXX, I have been reading your comments on William's video and one statement you made is puzzling.
...
How did you come up with your last statement? Weren't they all killed by the Romans?


No.  Josephus wrote that better than 40,000 were released:

"They were all received by the Romans, because Titus himself grew negligent as to his former orders for killing them, and because the very soldiers grew weary of killing them, and because they hoped to get some money by sparing them; for they left only the populace, and sold the rest of the multitude, with their wives and children, and every one of them at a very low price, and that because such as were sold were very many, and the buyers were few: and although Titus had made proclamation beforehand, that no deserter should come alone by himself, that so they might bring out their families with them, yet did he receive such as these also. However, he set over them such as were to distinguish some from others, in order to see if any of them deserved to be punished. And indeed the number of those that were sold was immense; but of the populace above forty thousand were saved, whom Caesar let go whither every one of them pleased." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book VI.8.2, pp.149

"791 This innumerable multitude of Jews that were 'sold' by the Romans was an eminent completion of God's ancient threatening by Moses, that if they apostatized from the obedience to his laws, they should be 'sold unto their enemies for bond-men and bond-women,' Deuteronomy 28:68. See more especially the note on ch. 9. sect. 2. But one thing is here peculiarly remarkable, that Moses adds, Though they should be 'sold' for slaves, yet 'no man should buy them;' i.e. either they should have none to redeem them from this sale into slavery; or rather, that the slaves to be sold should be more than were the purchasers for them, and so they should be sold for little or nothing; which is what Josephus here affirms to have been the case at this time." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book VI.8.2, fn791, pp.1493]

My understanding is based on this verse:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." -- Gen 3:15 KJV

Mine is not necessarily a new doctrine, but preterists tend to cut it off at A.D. 70. This video from the 2017 Preterist Pilgrim Weekend of 2017 brings out that point:


LXX
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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2018, 11:46:57 PM »


Mine is not necessarily a new doctrine, but preterists tend to cut it off at A.D. 70.


Milton Terry aside, why do you believe Satan has not been destroyed?

Jackie
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 12:12:00 AM »


Milton Terry aside, why do you believe Satan has not been destroyed?


This:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." -- 1John 3:8 KJV

Well, has he?  Has the Son of God destroyed the works of the devil?

LXX

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Perry

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 12:33:23 AM »


Has the Son of God destroyed the works of the devil?


I would say no.  How to do you interpret this?

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Perry


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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 12:45:43 AM »


How to do you interpret this?
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


The first part was the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and "Judaism".  The second was the fulfillment of Moses and the Prophets.

Note that my interpretation assumes that Jesus was a prophet, and the "thousand year reign" and second resurrection are new prophecies, not found in the old testament.

LXX





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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 11:11:58 PM »


Has the Son of God destroyed the works of the devil?


LXX, I have went over your posts many times, and I don't disagree with you, but I am having a problem understanding these time statements:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:7 And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.

Jackie
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 11:27:55 PM »


I am having a problem understanding these time statements (Rev 1:1, 3, 22:7)


Jackie, read this post by Dan and see if you still have a problem:


LXX
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Matt712

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2018, 12:22:33 AM »


read this post by Dan and see if you still have a problem:



LXX,

I had read and commented on that post, and forgot about it. But after you posted this link I revisited it.  I now realize I completely misunderstood it. I am not sure what to make of it just yet but it is astonishing.

Matt
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Jackie

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2018, 12:25:42 AM »


Jackie, read this post by Dan and see if you still have a problem:



That's not Jesus, is it.


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LXXResearcher

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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2018, 12:27:31 AM »


That's not Jesus, is it.


I don't believe so.

LXX
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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2018, 12:34:11 PM »


Read this post by Dan and see if you still have a problem:


LXX, I would appreciate some feedback on this post:

http://forum.bibleresearchtools.com/index.php?topic=27.msg321#msg321

Dan
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Re: Not Taste of Death
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2018, 12:36:01 PM »


Many who claim to be partial preterists deny a first-century 2nd coming due to creedal constraints, or, for the same reason, admit he came but deny it was the "real" second coming.


Rev, I would appreciate some feedback on this post:

http://forum.bibleresearchtools.com/index.php?topic=27.msg321#msg321

Dan
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