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Author Topic: Was John Killed Before AD 70?  (Read 293 times)

George

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Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« on: November 16, 2016, 09:01:24 AM »


This statement by Jesus indicates James and John would be martyred:

   "James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, came up to Jesus, saying, "Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask of You." And He said to them, "What do you want Me to do for you?" They said to Him, "Grant that we may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left, in Your glory." But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized." -- Mar 10:35-39

During his Olivet Discourse, Jesus indicated John would be killed by the Jews:

    "As He was sitting on the Mount of ulives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled? . . . "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them." -- Mar 13:3-4,9

    "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake." -- Luk 21:12

    "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." -- Mat 24:9

The powers of the Sanhedrin and synagogue rulers disappeared after the Jewish rebellion. Thus, it would seem from the text that John was delivered up and killed prior to AD 70.

What are your interpretations of those passages?

George

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 07:55:37 AM »


What are your interpretations of those passages?


George, welcome to the forum.

I have long believed the Apostle John was persecuted and killed prior to A.D. 70, based on the passages you quoted. I have found nothing in the historical narrative that would lead me to believe otherwise.

Dan

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:39:30 AM by Administrator »
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Brenda

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 12:02:36 PM »


I read that John wrote the Revelation in 95 A. D. according to Saint Irenaeus. Something doesn't add up.
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2016, 08:13:52 AM »


I read that John wrote the Revelation in 95 A. D. according to Saint Irenaeus. Something doesn't add up.



Brenda, the work of Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", in which he claims that Polycarp and Papias were "hearers" of the Apostle John, has been discredited in many ways. In the manner or Papias being an eye-witness to the Apostle, Eusebius wrote,

    "1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenaeus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: "These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him. These are the words of Irenaeus." [Philip Schaff, Eusebius, Church History, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 2 Vol 01." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1904, BK III.39.1, p.170]

    "2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends." [Philip Schaff, Eusebius, Church History, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 2 Vol 01." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1904, BK III.39.2, p.170]

    "7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us." [Philip Schaff, Eusebius, Church History, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 2 Vol 01." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1904, BK III.39.7, pp.171-72]

Regarding the claims by historians that John wrote the Revelation during the reign of Domitian, they are all based on a single statement by Irenaeus; and they must be dismissed as unprovable hearsay due to these related statements by Irenaeus:

    "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, Amer Ed, 1913, Book V.30.3, pp.559-560]

    "Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six;" [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, Amer Ed, 1913, Book V.30.1, p.558]

How could there possibly be "ancient copies" of a book written about a vision that was seen "almost in our day"?

Written history can only be valid if it does not contradict the scripture. Jesus stated the four disciples he was conversing with would be killed during their generation. He also stated that the blood of all the prophets and righteous men (which included the Apostles) would be laid on first-century Jerusalem [Mat 23:29-31, 34-35, 37; Luk 11:49-50, 13:33]. Jerusalem was destroyed around A.D. 70.

LXX

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George

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 02:04:08 PM »


LXX,

That is an interesting take on the ancient copies. I have read that he could have been pointing to the book instead of the vision. Now I think that is correct.

Are you saying that Polycarp did not know John?

George
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LXXResearcher

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2016, 07:31:36 PM »


That is an interesting take on the ancient copies. I have read that he could have been pointing to the book instead of the vision. Now I think that is correct.



Another interpretation is, Irenaeus may have been referring to Polycarp:

    "There is surely nothing inconsistent, or very unusual, in saying of a public or celebrated person he was seen as late as a given year, after which he disappeared from public view. As Irenaeus does not supply the nominative, apocalypse is only taken so by alleged grammatical propriety. He [Irenaeus] does not say that the object seen was seen by John; and the words, to be fairly interpreted, must be taken in their connection. They are the conclusion of a chapter on the number 666. This, he argues, must be the true number in preference to 616, not only for a rather cabalistic reason, that the three digits might be expected to be the same, but for the better reason, that "the most ancient copies," [Greek] contained it, and were witnessed by elders who had seen John,"the most noted and the earliest of these being evidently Polycarp. He concludes in a hesitating expression, that "if it had been expedient that the name should be proclaimed [Greek], it would have been told [Greek] by him who saw the apocalypse," referring, it would seem, not to John, but to Polycarp, who as a disciple of John must have seen his original Apocalypse in his possession, in distinction from the "copies" which the other elders referred to had seen, but which to Irenaeus had become "ancient," implying that they had been in writing many years; and much more the original autograph, seen by the witness, who might have heard the meaning of the number from John himself. This harmonizes all the facts, and agrees with the usage of Irenaeus in other places, using the word "apocalypse" to mean the writing or book recording both the visions and the interpretations." [James Glasgow, "The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded." T & T Clark, 1872, Rev 1:1, p.45]


Are you saying that Polycarp did not know John?


That is the most probable scenario due to the prophecies of Jesus in Matt 23-24 and Mark 13 predicting John's martyrdom prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, which was about the time Polycarp was born. It is also worth nothing that Irenaeus was not born until about 130 AD, and his recollection of Polycarp's statement(s) was as a youth.

That is not to say that Polycarp did now know someone named John, such as John the Presbyter that Papias wrote of. There is also the possibility there was a false apostle running around Asia in his day claiming to be John. We know there were multiple false apostles in the Ephesus area at the time John wrote the Revelation:

    "Unto the angel of the congregation of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" -- Rev 2:1-2 KJV

LXX


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Administrator

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Re: Was John Killed Before AD 70?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 12:39:40 PM »


This statement by Jesus indicates James and John would be martyred:


George, I would appreciate some feedback on this post:

http://forum.bibleresearchtools.com/index.php?topic=27.msg321#msg321

Dan
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